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Content 2.0: Marketing 2.0 Forum

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By: NMK Created on: July 25th, 2006
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This forum session at Content 2.0 on 6th June 2006 saw speakers from MySpace, Collaborate Marketing and Gaping Void discuss the issues and challenges of marketing in the Web 2.0 space and debate current trends and the future of content with the audience...

Content 2.0: 'Marketing 2.0 = Content 2.0' Forum Session

This forum session at Content 2.0 on 6th June 2006 saw speakers from MySpace, Collaborate Marketing and Gaping Void discuss the issues and challenges of marketing in the Web 2.0 space and debate current trends and the future of content with the audience...

Report by Deirdre Molloy

[Register and post your own comments on this article below...]

Download this session from the Content 2.0 Podcasts!

Michael Bayler kicked-off the session by remarking that a useful way of looking at Web and Marketing 2.0 is “the migration of value into pastures new" – a change in the locus of value, the nature of value and how it is created...

Consumers – or people – are playing a more active role. Once the person is at the heart of value creation they cease to be a consumer.

Indeed, it’s arguable that the companies they chose to deal with become consumers of the individual’s attention, he continued. Without attention, any marketing effort, any content, any brand is a tree falling in the woods and nobody hears it. We should suspend judgement on value, he noted. Just as value is added to products by creating services, so value is being added to services by the creation of experiences. As for blogging – in the words of the book Naked Conversations, your brand is naked in this space, Michael said.

James Cherkoff - Collaborate Marketing: 'Effective Communication With the 2.0 Consumer'

James began with the observation that the number one issue for brands is always control. To marketers, the issues we’re talking about can seem like anarchy if you come from a situation where you built your model around command of the media and telling audiences what to do. But feeling the fear and taking the “marketing is dead” approach is wrong, he stressed. Marketing is just about markets; the terrain is just changing.

Jim Stengel, the Chief Marketing Officer of Proctor & Gamble has a $5bn budget and recently he said “The traditional model is obsolete”. The traditional model worked well for 40 or 50 years, James said, but it’s unclear where to go next. The view brands have of themselves is that they are the supernovas; that they’re massive in size and dominate media around the world. But this mindset is being challenged and contradicted by the very large consumer networks, user-generated content and “people networks” – and brands are having to revolve around them instead, inverting the traditional model.

Another difficult thing brands are dealing with is measurement. If you’re a professional marketer a lot of your job is about measuring the effects of what you do, and that’s very, very difficult to do in this new space.
“The other thing that strikes fear into brands is the idea of user-generated content…”
- James Cherkoff, Collaborate Marketing
It’s recently been estimated there are currently around a trillion pages on the internet and that’s growing at a rate of around 25,000 pages every hour, so it’s almost un-trackable and almost unknowable, and that really strikes fear into the heart of marketers. The other thing that strikes fear into brands, James continued, is the idea of user-generated content. To brands, that content can often appear as worthless because it’s un-measurable or because of the idea that the people creating the content are nutters. They can’t understand how it can be of value or of significance (unless, of course, the users are talking about the brand in question, then of course it becomes hugely significant, he intoned wryly).

As for social software – we’ve got to the stage where it’s less about the software and more about the social. Social network measurement is like trying to go into a pub or farmers market – you can’t capture or measure all the conversations – or the actual act of socialising around that conversation. And that’s what a lot of the networks are – whether distributed blogs or massive portals like Myspace – people are basically there enjoying them selves.

So for a brand to go in there and try and measure that, especially if you are committed to old tools to measure that space – that becomes very difficult. Take English Cut, the blog of the Savile Row tailor Thomas Mahon that he works with. The tailor in question is one of the best in the world – he has cut suits for the Prince Of Wales, Sir Alec Guinness and Fred Astaire. He’s one guy with a £2-£4k product. Hugh’s other high-profile consultancy has been with a South African winery – Stormhoek – that produces and sells ten of thousands of cases a year, who used blogging to increase sales of a mass-market product.

In retrospect the tailor was a no-brainer, Hugh reflected. It was simply a matter of “talk about what you know, and what you love, share your enthusiasm and people will discover you”. They started the English Cut blog and that’s what happened, to the point where it tripled his business within in 6 months, he got in the New York Times within 3 months and had a guy interviewing him for a book within 4 months. And if you Google Savile Row, now he’s number one.
“The whole thing about Hollywood is that they’re so locked into lawyers and copyright that they can’t imagine a world where Creative Commons could exist.”
- Hugh MacLeod, GapingVoid
The one thing Hugh told him when he started blogging – to use the old Cluetrain-ism – is that you don’t control the conversation. If you’re a brand and you’re smart, you realise this – people talk about what they want to talk about, not what you want to talk about. Hugh explained that he recently consulted on a film blog and the first question the parent company Disney asked him was “if we write a blog and upload photographs, how can we stop people copying and pasting blog content and putting it on their own internet?” Why not, Hugh replied. The whole thing about Hollywood is that they’re so locked into lawyers and copyright that they can’t imagine a world were Creative Commons could exist.

So if you don’t control the conversation, Hugh reasoned, how can you get a good outcome? By improving the conversation. If you go in there and raise the nature of interaction people are going to pay attention to you, if you go there and lower it people are going to ignore you. It doesn’t matter if you’re a humble tailor or Coca Cola. You’re too easy to ignore in this space, and too easy to take the piss out of; and the bigger you are the more the vultures are going to gather every time you trip up.

Blogs by their nature are cheap and secondly they’re easy. Marketers, advertisers and journalists are not in the cheap and easy business – we want to sell stuff that’s expensive and difficult because the harder it is, the more expensive it is the more money we can make and less other people can copy us and we like that! So really blogs aren’t interesting to us, Hugh quipped donning a mainstream media mindset, because we’re not in the cheap and easy model and that’s what’s making us uncomfortable with this.
“It doesn’t matter what spin you put on things – the truth will out…”
- Hugh MacLeod, GapingVoid
Thirdly, he continued, blogs are interlinked – that means we can talk about you. More so, people can find out about what others are saying about you, so it doesn’t matter what spin you put on things – so the truth will out.

Finally what really drives the blogosphere and makes it interesting, Hugh stressed, is not ambition and money – people do it for love and goodwill. People bond with the people they connect to. It’s important stuff. If you’re not sharing what you love, and you’re just doing it to take and not to give in a very human way, people won’t listen or give back – in which case, he recommended you just stick to advertising. It’s not as useful or as cheap as what is was but hey, at least you have metrics to measure it with and maybe that way you can protect your job.

When Jason from Stormhoek hired Hugh he was fascinated with blogs. They considered just blogging about Stormhoek, but Hugh said no-one would be interested. Then they hatched the idea of sending out 100 bottles to a range of bloggers and starting the conversation aurally – and people did blog about it even if they didn’t like it.
“Robert Scoble, the best known blogger at Microsoft, finds interesting conversations about Microsoft and engages in them and that causes internal disruption…”
- Hugh MacLeod, GapingVoid
But it’s not what happens to the people out there that matters, because only a few thousand people are going to see your blog. It’s how it affects the corporation and the way people behave internally, Hugh reflected. He cited Robert Scoble, the best known blogger at Microsoft [note: he has since left to join podcasting network start-up PodTech on 12th June 2006 – Ed] doesn’t sell more Dell or Toshiba computers, he doesn’t raise the stock price directly, but what he does is find interesting conversations about Microsoft and engages in them and that causes internal disruption in Microsoft that either works for you or doesn’t work for you.

That’s what happened with Stormhoek. People in the industry started talking about Stormhoek, and then it’s only a matter of time before the buyers start talking about you, and when you walk into the office of Sainsbury’s or whoever for your sales pitch you can hold your head a lot higher than you would have been. Dr Pentland at MIT reckoned sales have increased by about 40%. Is it blogging? Or is it about changing attitudes..?

Blogs are disruptive to the cultural DNA, they change you, they change the culture of your organisation, Hugh continued. If you’re thinking about blogging, ask yourself: what is it that it’s going to disrupt, what area you trying to change? As a junior or global brand manager blogs may not make your job easier; it might cause trouble and put you out of a job.

Jamie Kantrowitz – MySpace: 'Marketing To Generation Y In The 2.0 Space'

What’s interesting about MySpace – who now have 80+ million users – Jamie reflected in opening, is that’s it’s populated by people who reflect all the things that Hugh and James are talking about. In Web 2.0 with blogging, MySpace and the like, it’s changed segmented marketing. You’re not marketing at but marketing with your consumers now.

There’s a lot of positives and efficiencies with putting your brand into a social networking space – now the medium is in your message, it’s the first place where communication and media has become one thing. It creates an incredibly intimate dialogue with the consumer, hence not marketing at them but dialoguing with them. What’s new about it is that you can visually see and watch this really powerful dialogue and digital word-of-mouth especially on MySpace where you can literally watch your brand community grow as people discover it – which can be harrowing for brands. Brands are nervous about putting their message around or beside user-generated content. But television has been facing that challenge for many years with brands saying I don’t want my commercial next to that show, etc.
“The reality is that everything that happens on all your marketing communications and across all media platforms is now verified on the internet.”
- Jamie Kantrowitz, MySpace
Nike’s is a great 2.0 marketing brand not just because they have created a great community and have such a emotional connection with their brand, Jamie reckoned, but also because TIVO, and blogs, they can create their own media, but Nike aren’t now lecturing you about fashion. So on one level brands have been letting go of control forever, but now they’re just doing it on a whole new frontier.

In terms of addressing control issues with brands, they work very closely with their marketers that want to pour brands into the network, as it’s true that you do want to improve the dialogue. The reality is that everything that happens on all your marketing communications and across all platforms is now verified on the internet.

You can chose to engage in that and try to improve the conversation, as Hugh said, Jamie noted. When you think about moving your brand onto a social network space, you have to think more deeply about who those consumers are, how jaded and savvy they are, how aware they are of being marketed to. What are other brands doing? Bear in mind what’s happening with even less controlled environments like iTunes and YouTube.
“There’s a demographic from a sociological perspective of 15-24 that use MySpace differently and are more savvy…”
- Jamie Kantrowitz, MySpace
The US fast food chain Wendy’s, famous for their “square hamburgers” made a character that’s irreverent and funny, inserted it into MySpace, and there’s now a Myspace Wendy’s community of over 150,000 members who have this character on their profile. That community becomes your word of mouth, Jamie stressed. Don’t worry about losing control if you can improve the dialogue. Having created the character, Hugh MacLeod rejoined, you can spin it out into other media and start the snowball rolling.

Shel Isreal asked what happens to the MySpace community as they age – does your vision contain this community as they get older or do you continually get to the new, younger, hipper consumer? As participants get more comfortable with social networking, how does MySpace respond?

Jamie replied that there’s a misconception as to how many teenagers are on MySpace as opposed to people in their twenties and older. It’s identified in the media as a teenage thing but their core demographic is 16-34 years old. There's a demographic from a sociological perspective of 15-24 that use it differently and are more savvy, she admitted. But the thing that takes it beyond being a trend is that while it’s not that much different from saying that you’re going to customise a Yahoo 360 space, MySpace’s platform is all based upon Web 2.0 tools, whereas Yahoo is based on a web 1.0 platform with blogging added on. The only people that tell MySpace how to develop their platform and tools are the users and they hope that will retain the users they have, and that ultimately they will always be on the forefront of new technologies that people want to communicate with.

The session then opened to the audience and Sam Sethi asked if the recent dip (noted by Alexa) in MySpace page impressions is connected to MySpace starting to add marketing and brands around it’s property since it was bought by News Corporation? Is this because they’re now using the community to market value from them, and are hence extracting value without giving any..?

Jamie replied that it’s a really new industry and they have not lost advertisers. There are dialogues always going on internally. They talk with their marketers all the time about how they are stepping into new territory and that it can be scary but this is the reality and it’s going to happen with or without you. But you don’t have to just place your brand on user profiles, and you don’t have to create something that totally lets your brand go, but some marketers want to.
“There are a lot of options when it comes to marketing in a user-generated content environment…”
- Jamie Kantrowitz, MySpace
There are a lot of options when it comes to marketing in a user-generated content environment, Jamie explained They have advertisers that prefer to market within the walled gardens of their content channels. They have others who say “we’re just for something that connects us with something more creative and it may not have to do with our brand in particular, we just want the brand association”, and they might want to do something in photography, or viral elements or music streaming. So the MySpace team try and figure out what this is in order to create something compelling around it. You can monitor your communities and have more control over that when the advertiser requests it, Jamie explained. So yes, there’s going to be some scepticism when it’s such a new platform – as with all the social networks. Especially when you look at YouTube which is even more unregulated.

Justin Kirby of DMC quoted veteran reporter John Lawton who commented that "the irony of the information age is that it gives credibility to unformed opinion" and that’s one of the reasons that brands are having so much trouble in this area. Particularly in the marketing space, if you look at Technorati and see the top bloggers – Hugh being the exception – most of these people are commentators on commentary, so you’re getting the “snake eating its own tail” effect, in regards to how credibility is being given.
“Bloggers can’t see how much of their audience is influential or credible as you can in an environment like MySpace, so that’s where you’ll see the shifting sands…”
- Justin Kirby, DMC
So the Guardian Media section starts quoting bloggers who from a practitioners' perspective are talking bollocks, Justin continued. User-generated content needs to be seen in the context of its credibility and identity, and credibility in Myspace is premised on the notion of who is most popular, most connected, most influential. Just going onto another form of media for eyeballs doesn’t move things forward, and you’re starting to see brands realising that what they want to do is create conversations with their most influential customers.

Then somewhere like Myspace becomes much more important than just bloggers, Justin argued, because bloggers can’t see how much of their audience is influential or credible as say in an environment like Myspace so that’s where you’ll see the shifting sands. Proctor & Gamble in their division have recruited 250,000 influential teens to start conversations and so if we’re going to talk about content we need to talk about influence and credibility.

“The real effect of networked media is that the way brands and products are marketed and distributed is changing and the products themselves need to change…”
- Nicolas Roope, Poke
Nicolas Roope of Poke London remarked that we seemed to be talking about Marketing 2.0 and marketing in general as nothing to do with the underlying businesses, brands and products, as something disjointed, but that’s not true. All these things are formed as much by the media as by their own internal processes. It goes a lot deeper because the real effect of networked media is that the way brands and products are marketed and distributed is changing and the products themselves need to change. Change needs to go down to the product level.

The central idea of the golden age of advertising, Nick explained, was of telling emotional stories about brands, which was a licence to go off and forget about product performance. But now if you put a foot wrong out of place, everyone knows about it overnight and that’s a tremendous threat. If you engineer products and brands in a way that is suited to that environment then it’s a completely different story. Look at Firefox, Flickr, Google – while they’re all technology brands – they’re all things that have come to prominence through word of mouth. Michael Bayler added that communications coming out of micro-media are steering the way products are developed.
“The threat is cooler, better products and networked businesses that are open to innovation…”
- Nicolas Roope, Poke
Hugh MacLeod noted that something interesting came up with Stormhoek when they were talking about blogging. Stormhoek asked – if it works, great, but what if it doesn’t? Hugh told them it will kill your brand dead overnight. But look on the bright side – if it kills it dead it’s because you have a shit product, and at least you won’t spend the next 10 years trying to keep a shit product alive and you can move on really quickly. But you can’t do that or take a risk with your brand if you have shareholders, Hugh insisted. They are collectively amoral, they just want to see the brand stock-price go up. So big brands owned by publicly-traded companies can’t do that, because their paymasters are immoral.

But Nicholas Roope countered that if you put all these things together it’s a tremendous opportunity. The threat isn’t anarchy; the threat is marketing rules being drawn up without the business being involved in it. The threat is cooler, better products and networked businesses that are open to innovation, citing the success of Adwords. It’s a great opportunity for businesses that are smarter, he reckoned.

Alex Barnett queried Hugh about the personification of brands and asked has Microsoft created a new brand called Scoble and what does that mean? Also, in regards to Nike, why would you advise them to open up and what’s in it for them to do that?

Hugh replied that Microsoft have helped co-created a brand called Scoble, (which can end as soon as he leaves) who earns little for the immense positive feeling he generates. He can leave any time, and a lot of people in Microsoft hate him, but he’s protected high-up in the organisation.
“The new model of marketing is messages passing between consumers rather than being inbound and outbound from the business…”
- Michael Bayler, The Rights Marketing Company
Shel Israel commented that what has dramatically changed at Microsoft is that it’s now comprised of thousands of individual brands that come and go. The old brand that was looked upon as the Borg, as evil, has disintegrated. We are all brands now. Our employers and businesses are affected by the particular brands coming in and out of the business.

James Cherkoff said Nike did everything right but at the end they couldn’t help themselves. At the end of the day they won’t give up control of the conversation. James added the blog that most entertains him is Arseblog, the blogger who has become a hero to Arsenal fans. He cited the Chevy Tahoe debate - people disagreed but it created interest around the product because there was genuine disagreement. Michael Bayler noted the new model of marketing is messages passing between consumers rather than being inbound and outbound from the business.

Jon Baines of Lateral mentioned the work they did with Levi’s on the Antidote campaign, and asked why aren’t brands putting more money into collaborating with and supporting communities like Antidote did? Jon also suggested the answer lay in the problems that he has experienced with campaigns and what the word “campaign” implies – thinking about things in the very short term. He felt there was a lack of creativity and that most big advertisers don’t want communities creating their campaigns for them. Finally, he said that it’s very hard to do media buying in the social media space, to go into blogs where there’s no accreditation and no accountability. Michael Bayler cited the BlogAds agency in New York in connection to this which was set up to buy blog ad space.
“How can you get brands to accept that they must be accountable to negative feedback?”
- James Cox, Smoke Clouds
James Cox of Smoke Clouds wondered how you can get brands to accept that they must be accountable to negative feedback. Alan Moore of SMLXL and co-author of Communities Dominate Brands responded that there’s huge gap in terms of education about what the dialogue is and what we need to do in response. Clients need to listen, he said.

Jamie Kantrowitz said people are putting their lives online and creating communities online so you have to respect the self-policing element. The best content rises to the top, and user-generated policing of conversations is the way forward, she reckoned.

Gareth Bourne argued that mainstream media is still more influential than social networks and decentralized media, otherwise why would Firefox be advertising in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal? The biggest myth of the power of social networks, he continued, is the Artic Monkeys – they still needed mainstream media in order to break through. So to get mainstream results you still need mainstream media. Jamie rejoined that she wasn’t saying we need one or the other, and the internet is just another platform but it’s also the verifier for other platforms. Hugh replied that advertising is rude and obnoxious, and it’s bloody expensive.
“Are we as an industry making this as easy as we can to those who can’t get it in the bigger brands and agencies?“
- Craig Hill, Digital Outlook
Craig Hill of Digital Outlook observed that there were huge levels of confusion when working with clients about the whole social networking phenomenon. Are we as an industry making this as easy as we can to those who can’t get it in the bigger brands and agencies? Hugh Macleod reckoned that the ad agencies don’t want to know, and noted that the PR industry is much further ahead than the advertising industry. Justin Kirby commented everyone is aware that brand awareness doesn’t just equal sales, but alternative metrics such as “engagement” and “advocacy” are just terms to make brands and their advertising agencies feel more comfortable. But you can’t manage what you can’t measure.

A delegate asked isn’t the problem that the effect of a campaign via communities or viral can be vastly different from what your objectives are – so you’re asking agencies to invest in something – social networks – that you can’t predict the impact of. Another person asked if Content 2.0 equals popularly generated content, does Marketing 2.0 equal audience-generated marketing? If it’s either subterfuge and embellishment or truth, are the Marketing and Product Manager no longer distinct roles?
“When 7/11 happened you saw user-generated content go mainstream…”
- Mike Butcher, mbites.com
Marc Canter commented that he’s fascinated with the deals Fox has been cutting with their affiliate TV networks to share revenue, recognise the value chain and extend their business models. In a lot of ways MySpace is simply there to prop up the Fox Network. No-one else has really executed well on synergy. Fox bought the football rights at a huge loss that that gave birth to their TV networks, and were able to parley that and for them to recognise how MySpace could affect the affiliate relationship to the TV networks and share the revenues is really cutting edge.

Mike Butcher argued that on the one side you have marketing to social networks, which are like big niches of people who want to create content and network online, and then you have the mainstream audience who just want to watch Coronation St. It’s mainly the younger audience that want to create and interact. However when 7/11 happened you saw user-generated content go mainstream, but that’s not necessarily something that MySpace would really speak to. Jamie Kantrowitz replied that sure, depending on your lifestyle, you might not spend all night looking at peoples profiles on MySpace, but lots of other things are going on too, such as when the Tsunami happened – a huge Tsunami support group sprang up overnight of over 20,000 people to search for missing loved ones. So this space is also being used for lot more social empowerment, and the site is connecting to a lot more world and civic happenings.

Content 2.0 - 2006 conference website:
http://www.content2point0.com/2006/

About James Cherkoff:
James started life in traditional PR advising Unilever, Philip Morris and Accenture - which he then joined. He then entered the online world at Bluewave and Circle.com before starting Pumpernickle, a consultancy specialising in Internet Culture. There he helped the Flemings family work out what the web meant for James Bond - which led him deep into the world of MMORPG and how the web distorts traditional notions of IP. In 2003, he founded Collaborate Marketing, to help corporations get to grips with marketing in networked environments. He is co-founder of Open Sauce Live (who are holding a workshop in association with NMK on 17th October 2006) and writes for the UK national press.

About Hugh MacLeod:
Hugh is a professional blogger and marketing consultant, who blogs at Gaping Void. Besides publishing cartoons and whatnot, Hugh runs a bespoke Savile Row tailoring firm, English Cut with Thomas Mahon, arguably one of the best half dozen tailors in the world. Besides that, his other day job is as a marketing and blogging consultant for Stormhoek, a small South African vinyard. Both Stormhoek and English Cut have all to do with what Hugh calls "The Global Microbrand", the latter being the area of business that interests him the most...

About Jamie Kantrowitz:
Jamie Kantrowitz is the Senior Vice President of Marketing and Content for MySpace.com in Europe. Based in London, Jamie serves as the architect for strategic and media partnerships, events and oversees the brand and content acquisition for MySpace and its entertainment channels, focusing on music, film, TV, and more. She relocated to London from MySpace's Los Angeles headquarters, where she served as VP of Marketing, generating relationships with record labels and studios which have resulted in the recently launched world premiere of acts from Neil Diamond to Nine Inch Nails. In addition to music, Jamie has chartered deals in the US with networks including NBC, Fox and Bravo to include exclusive content and groundbreaking multi-platform marketing programs from The Office, Nip/Tuck and Project Runway. With more than 70 million users worldwide, 1,400,000 bands and artists on the site, film and movies, and plans to expand into other entertainment genres and multiplatform distribution, MySpace has steadily become the next generation online destination for users looking to discover new trends, music and culture while connecting with like-minded individuals.

About Michael Bayler:
Michael Bayler, co-founder of innovation firm The Rights Marketing Company, and publisher of 'The Micro Media Corporation', is an acknowledged expert in the fast-moving world of digital media and entertainment. He works with clients and partners as diverse as BT, Microsoft, Nokia, EMI, Robbie Williams, Simon Cowell, Accenture and the IESE business school. Michael’s first book, “Promiscuous Customers: Invisible Brands - Delivering Value in Digital Markets” (Capstone 2002, with D. Stoughton) explores the value of information, and the strategic implications of the consumer-centric economy. He blogs and podcasts regularly on 2.0.

OTHER CONTENT 2.0 SESSIONS REPORTS

Content 2.0: Connecting Content To People

Content 2.0: Goodbye New Media Hello Social Media

Content 2.0: Can Brands Be Trusted?Content 2.0: The Future Of Web Search

Content 2.0: Folksonomies - What Are They Good For?

Content 2.0: Search & Enjoy Forum

Content 2.0: The Invisible Culture

Beers & Innovation (music special) @ Content 2.0

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